Divorce is known to be especially hard on children.  But children react to divorce in different ways.  In this episode of the Divorce Rulebook Podcast we hear directly from a young woman about her experience with her parents’ divorce as a child.

Episode 12 Transcript:

Kevin: Hello and welcome to the Divorce Rulebook podcast. I’m Kevin Handy. I’m a divorce attorney with over 20 years of legal experience and the founder and CEO of Snap Divorce, a modern divorce mediation firm with attorney mediators throughout the United States.

Pat: And I’m Pat Cooley. I’m also a divorce attorney. I have more than 30 years of family law experience, and I’m the lead attorney mediator at Snap Divorce.

Kevin: If you’re thinking about divorce, we’re in the midst of one. This podcast is for you. We’re hoping to give you the information you need to successfully navigate the divorce process and avoid the numerous pitfalls that await you.

Pat: So please join us for this episode of the Divorce Rulebook podcast.

Kevin: I’m Kevin Handy, and this is Episode Twelve of the Divorce Rulebook podcast – Divorce from a Child’s Perspective. If you listened to our prior podcasts, you’ll notice that Pat was missing from the opening of this episode. That’s because in this episode, I’m going to be interviewing a young adult, Emma, who experienced her parents divorce as a child. We thought that hearing about how a child experiences his or her parents divorce firsthand was incredibly important and might put into perspective what your priorities should be. If you’re a parent thinking about getting divorced, parents, like everyone else, are human and you’re likely going to be going through what is one of the most devastating times of your life. You’re in an incredible amount of emotional pain and you’re struggling just to function and take care of yourself. As a result, it can be a selfish moment. All you can think about is yourself. It’s hard to set that aside and think about putting the needs of your children ahead of your own, but that’s what’s required. Being a good parent requires you to be selfless and put the needs of your kids first. So welcome, Emma, and thank you for agreeing to sit down for this interview.

Emma: Yeah, of course.

Kevin: Now, of course, Emma’s not your real name. It’s a pseudonym to protect your privacy.

Emma: Yeah.

Kevin: So Emma, why don’t you give us a little bit about your background.

Emma: So I’m 18, I’m a senior in high school, and I’m getting ready to go off to college in a couple of months.

Kevin: I think most people have heard one place or another about the ill effects divorce can have on children, but I think very few people have ever heard about them firsthand from a person who experienced divorce as a child. In fact, I’ve been in the business of divorce for many years and I’ve actually never talked to anyone about their experience whose parents divorced when there were children. So why did you think it was important to sit down and be interviewed for this podcast?

Emma: I think it gives insight to the parents on what they should be specifically trying to give their child and focusing on with them versus what they should be doing in private or just to make it more as smooth as possible for the children.

Kevin: So to start out, I kind of want to just go back to the beginning of the divorce process in your family. How did you first hear about your parents divorce?

Emma: So I was six at the time, but I do have a pretty good memory as a child, both my mom and dad sat me and then my two brothers, who were four and two, down on the couch and they said, do you know what the word divorce is? And both of my brothers just they just shook their head. And I remember trying to be like and know it all, being like, oh, yeah, I’ve heard about that word, but I had no idea what it is. And they ended up just saying its parents splitting up. That was really all I remember hearing about it. Nothing else came after that in the conversation. I know they said that we would be moving or my mom would be moving.

Kevin: Did they give you any more detailed explanation at that time about what it meant getting divorced?

Emma: No, they didn’t give an explanation about really what the word was. And I understand that because even though a six year old maybe could have picked it up a little bit, a four year old and two year old would have never thought anything of if they explained it more, I guess.

Kevin: Yeah, I think four and two is pretty young, but six, I mean, you can sort of understand, like, hey, my parents aren’t going to be living together anymore. Did you kind of understand that that’s what they were talking about?

Emma: Yeah, and I remember thinking, my one friend in my kindergarten class, I think I said, oh, my friend’s parents do that, something like that.

Kevin: Did either your parents at that time give you an explanation of the reason for the divorce?

Emma: No, so I’ve never heard an explanation, or at the time, I never got any reason why.

Kevin: So to this day, you still don’t know why they got divorced?

Emma: Yeah, I still don’t know.

Kevin: I mean, are you curious? Did you ever wonder about what happened?

Emma: That’s what I wrote down as a child. No, I’m just very go with the flow. But I think my age and maybe two years ago, you start to naturally question it a little bit, but more for the idea of just to know about your own parent, what they did, or like kind of protecting your other parent, if that makes sense. But definitely. Once I got past 16, I started to wonder why.

Kevin: You hear that kids often blame themselves for their parents divorce. Did you ever have that thought cross your mind? Did you ever blame yourself?

Emma: Yeah, I don’t remember ever feeling it. It was my fault when I was a kid or throughout elementary school, but I think it definitely subconsciously it does because I do normally feel bad leaving one another, going from one’s house, but I know it wasn’t solely my fault.

Kevin: I’m sure it wasn’t your fault.

Emma: And my parents were also good about saying, no, this is nothing on you. They would repeat that often.

Kevin: And did you believe them?

Emma: Yeah, definitely.

Kevin: I think we sort of just covered that. But you said you really didn’t want to know why they got divorced until you got a little bit older.

Emma: Yeah. Again, that young. I don’t think many kids would under if they don’t understand the process in the first place, how are they going to ask about details about your parents? And I don’t think I would have understood if they did explain at the time. I think I would have misjudged the whole situation if they did explain at that time.

Kevin: What was your initial reaction to that conversation?

Emma: I remember not feeling like it was a big deal, and it didn’t really feel real until we actually moved. I remember I asked my mom that night when she was tucking me in, and I had a bunch of my stuffed animals lined up along my bed, and I said all I was worried about was that I could bring my stuffed animals and my dolls over to my new house. So I think my mind was more thinking about the move, not so much about what was happening with my parents.

Kevin: I wonder if that’s because of your age, because I feel like definitely thinking back if I heard my parents were getting divorced when at least maybe once a little older, I would have been set until, like, panic.

Emma: Yeah, totally.

Kevin: So you weren’t necessarily really worried about it at that time?

Emma: No. And again, it didn’t even feel like I was actually moving or something was happening with my parents until we were physically separated.

Kevin: Did they ever discuss how the living situation was going to be, like, you’re going to spend some time with your mom or spend some time with your dad?

Emma: I remember a little bit of them saying them just telling me the agreement that I was with my mom during the weeks and then going back to my dad’s on the weekends. But they also didn’t really explain that besides the fact my mom was like, a stay at home mom at the time and my dad worked all week.

Kevin: Did you have any feelings about that custody arrangement?

Emma: So where we moved to was an hour away from my dad’s house, and so on the weekdays, we were what now I call home. But every Friday, we would have to drive an hour to my dad’s house, and then we’d spend the weekend there, drive an hour back.

Kevin: One thing your answer sort of made me think of, and I don’t know if I thought about this as a kid or not, or just as a kid, you think you hear someone gets divorced, right? Oh, my gosh, what would happen if my parents get divorced? Do you remember having any strong feelings about who you actually wanted to spend time with?

Emma: Yes, but I also think so because I was with my mom all throughout the week and then my dad’s on the weekends, an hour away. I remember feeling every Friday when I had to go to my dad’s house, I definitely wanted to stay with my mom most of the time. I really only got upset about it for the first couple months, I think. But I also think over time it did get harder. Obviously traveling because that’s who I was with on the week was like my hometown then and now too. So I think definitely where you are and who you’re surrounded with is a part of that.

Kevin: I know growing up, my mother was a stay at home mom and if my parents had gotten divorced, I know I would have wanted to live with her and it’s hard to even imagine, but to think would I wanted this to go off with my dad because at some point you have friends and you mentioned it. I assume you eventually felt like your mother’s house was your home.

Emma: It did. And then so that’s what especially with I never really got upset and again I was very go with the flow with it until like an 8th grade when we were still we still that same schedule, my dad hasn’t moved. I would then start to miss out with hanging out with friends because in elementary school it’s more just family time. You don’t really think about as many playdates or you don’t care as much, or at least I didn’t.

Kevin: It may just be when you grew up because when I was a kid I’d come over from school, drop my stuff off and go out to my friend’s house. Even from first grade on, I’d be walking to the neighbor and to imagine moving away from that or not having access to that on the weekends or every other week, I can only imagine how difficult that would be.

Emma: And that’s what you didn’t have when I was back at my dad’s house, that my whole family lived there before they split up. But it felt like there was nothing at my dad’s house. I had no friends there anymore, obviously. And then we’d do some family things but you’d really just be that’s when you started to get a phone and that’s when the I guess I don’t have it anymore, but anxiety started to be in middle school, my friends can hang out all the time. We would actually be down in my mom’s town a lot because my brothers had sports, so I could have some hangouts or play dates then. But it was never you missed out.

Kevin: On a lot, you had a lot of fear of missing out.

Emma: Yes, and specifically in 9th grade I had the hardest time with that because you’re a freshman in high school, you want to be with your friends all the time.

Kevin: It’s interesting. I’m glad we’re doing this, but we’re going off the track. I might interview questions, but this is great stuff because one of the books I read about custody and whatnot, and it says, like, one of the number one predictors of a child doing well in divorce is that their parents live I think it’s within ten minutes of each other. Yeah. And I started telling my clients that, and I started you know, I put blogs about it.

Emma: Yeah.

Kevin: And I think your description really sums it up as, like and it was your mother who moved away. Why did she move away?

Emma: I think in the first place, where we were with our whole family at the time, she didn’t hate it there, but I know she didn’t love the area. And she had always known of this town from friends who lived lived there.

Kevin: Is that where you live now?

Emma: Yes.

Kevin: So you moved to the place you currently live and still live there.

Emma: And so they have really good well, she said at the time that she had just heard about they had such good school districts. Great. Just a really great town for kids to grow up in. And so she said she visited, like, a couple of weekends down here, stayed with a few friends, and she felt like it was a really good place with kids, but yeah, she was the one moving technically away from where we were, so I did switch schools.

Kevin: How old were you? Were you six years old?

Emma: Still six.

Kevin: So I assume that wasn’t not traumatic.

Emma: No.

Kevin: Kindergarten?

Emma: No, it was directly in the middle of kindergarten year, so we moved the I don’t know if it was Christmas Day or the day after Christmas of spending it together as a family. We then drove to our new house, and that was a first week down in my new town, and then I started school like, a week later. So yeah, January of my kindergarten year.

Kevin: What sort of advice would you give the parents, though, about if they’re thinking.

Emma: About moving, like moving far or in the first place?

Kevin: Well, obviously if you’re getting divorced, you’re going to move out, but yeah, I’m talking about moving an hour away from, like I said, one of the predictors, at least supposedly scientifically, is that kids do well when their parents live very close together. And so I assume you would caution, strongly caution people.

Emma: Yeah, I would definitely try. And I’m so thankful that my mom moved to where I am now. I absolutely love it here. But I would definitely say if your one parents trying to move far, either try and go to the same place, even if it’s not the best for your work, or just try and be as close as possible. Even if it was like, 30 minutes, it’d be better than an hour.

Kevin: An hour is pretty far.

Emma: Yeah.

Kevin: And I assume it also probably a lot depends on the ages of the children. If you had Dan in fifth grade, 6th grade, I mean, it gets much more much more difficult, definitely. Because you’ve got your friends. I’ve always, you know yeah. My wife and I were taking a walk one day and we’re just I don’t know why we’re you know, we’re talking about divorce not not because we kind of get divorced, but because of what I do for a living.

Emma: Yeah.

Kevin: And, you know, we’re just sort of like talking about I think maybe I was writing a blog or doing a podcast about planning your divorce. And I said if we were going to get divorced, the number one thing I would think about doing was getting a place, basically, where in the same school district, in the same schools where my kids are. The number one thing I would put forward is to make sure that their lives were disrupted as little as possible. And I can tell you, I have seen firsthand where a parent moves an hour, an hour and a half away. Occasionally it’s for a job, but most of the time it’s for, like, a girlfriend or boyfriend.

Emma: Yeah.

Kevin: And then you move. You can say it’s like torture. Right.

Emma: Yeah.

Kevin: And you don’t want to be there. You don’t have any friends there.

Emma: Yeah, exactly. And I think even in being at the house where nothing is, it makes you almost feel pressured to spend time with that parent there. In my opinion, it almost made you not, of course, fully resent them. But your opinion towards that parent changed because even though it wasn’t, I guess, their fault for living there, it made you as like a child, feel like you just didn’t like them as much because they were living in a place you didn’t want to be.

Kevin: I think it’s totally understandable.

Emma: Yeah.

Kevin: I mean, to some extent, you’re a prisoner of your parents decisions.

Emma: Yeah.

Kevin: And you said it gave you anxiety.

Emma: Yeah, definitely. Again, once I was in 8th grade to probably 10th grade, that’s when it was really bad. But that was also half COVID, and that was already really hard. But after my dad moved close to us, that was end of my 10th grade year, we just go week to week, Sunday to Sunday, like alternating full weeks now and then, that kind of.

Kevin: Were you involved in that decision or was that just a decision of your parents?

Emma: So my dad was looking, or quote unquote, looking for a house for a while down where we live. But the market at the time and for a while was really expensive. Really hard to find a house in our school district, specifically with my three schools, like high school, middle school, and elementary school.

Kevin: Whose decision was did you have input on that decision, or did it just come from your parents that they said, hey, we’re doing this now?

Emma: My parents have always been good about flexibility, which has been great.

Kevin: Again, it is something I tell my clients all the time. The best thing you can be is flexible. That this custody schedule does not have to be written. What do you mean by they were flexible?

Emma: So with an hour away, it was just a lot of times where it would either be, oh, we’re only going to be 15 minutes late or so. My parents were extremely flexible within the way of whether the one parent was going to be late in dropping us off because our dinner ran late.

Kevin: And this is when your father was living an hour away?

Emma: Yes, this is when we were away. But even now, you still didn’t really.

Kevin: Get to why did you just change from week to week from weekend?

Emma: Because he did move closer and then my dad was working from home.

Kevin: Now, how old were you when the schedule changed?

Emma: 16.

Kevin: So did you want it to change?

Emma: I didn’t mind just because he was now close. My parents only live at most ten minutes away from each other. Now it changed just because simply he was closer, and I don’t think there was a reason from holding back time with him. Yeah.

Kevin: Also, it gets to the question too, and I think we touched on this earlier. Do you still feel like your mother’s house is your home and you’re like a guest or like you’re visiting your father?

Emma: It definitely feels like I definitely have a closer relationship with my mom altogether. I know with my brothers it’s a little bit different because they did they didn’t exactly go through those years of the anxiety of not being with friends because they were that young and they did like spending time with their dad just as much didn’t thinking about friends. But it doesn’t feel like I’m a visitor to my dad’s house, but it’s definitely not as it feels like my home, because it’s also like I like the house in the first place in my room, but it’s not as, I guess, comforting as it is at my mom’s house.

Kevin: Do you think there’s something that could be done to sort of again, I don’t want to pin on your father because you get divorced, your mom moves away for an hour. But in my mind, again, I’m sort of picturing myself in this situation. I would picture like I’ve got whichever houses I would picture, probably the parent I’m spending the most time with. I’ve got my room, I’ve got my stuff, I’ve got my kid, I got my stuffed animals and my Lego. And it feels like I go home and this is my spot in this room. And it’s hard to imagine that, and maybe you can tell me otherwise because I haven’t gone through, but it’s hard to imagine there’s a second room in a different house. That’s the same thing.

Emma: Yeah. I can’t even imagine what it’s going to be like living in one room at college so it feels normal to.

Kevin: You, and you feel comforted in both rooms and your stuff’s in both rooms.

Emma: Yeah, I mean, now I have stuff in both rooms. When my dad was an hour away, I definitely felt like I was visiting my dad because I would just keep again, you’re at school during the week, so you’d keep all of your clothes, important things. Most of my stuffed animals at my mom’s house. But now it definitely feels more like even because the time is even.

Kevin: So let me just go back this is super interesting. Let me go back before they got divorced. Again, you’re very young, but did you ever sense there’s any problems in their marriage?

Emma: So I only have two memories of them, even, I guess, fighting in the first place, but they were in different rooms, and I remember a babysitter was over, and I’m pretty sure it was like, the year of the divorce. I think they were talking about paperwork, because I remember they were in the study. I remember thinking something was weird because they were being extra secretive or something sort of secretive, but they were being extra nice to us and giving us again, we were with a babysitter in the same house. But I just remember them coming out, like, being like, oh, do you want ice cream or do you want to go out anywhere? I just remember thinking, like, something felt off, but I didn’t understand it at the time.

Kevin: But is there was there anything else? I mean, did you just feel like anytime did you think, like, they don’t have, like, there they don’t have a good relationship, or I just sense that there’s, like.

Emma: Yeah.

Kevin: It’s a hard question to ask. And getting you’re six years old. But.

Emma: Now that’s a harder question to answer because I don’t remember them. I don’t remember them being married in a I just don’t have a lot of memories of them together. First place.

Kevin: Right.

Emma: Got you. Not really.

Kevin: Okay. Do you remember how your parents divorced proceed at all? Do you remember if things moved quickly or slowly? I mean, it seems like it seems like the from the time they told you you’re moving out of the house seems like pretty quickly.

Emma: So I think if I were to guess, I remember the again, like, the two times I even heard fighting and, like, them in the study and the babysitter coming out, and I think they were, like, getting paperwork done. I think they were getting the divorce sorted out in the I mean, for me, it was at the beginning of that year, and then once everything was almost done, that’s when they told us, and then it was either a month or two later. That’s when we moved out on Christmas. So I think they did most of it before, but I don’t know when it was finalized.

Kevin: So in your experience, it wasn’t your parents didn’t have one of those long.

Emma: Drawn out nasty no.

Kevin: They’Re fighting for two years.

Emma: No, I believe if I were to guess it was a year, I think year and a half.

Kevin: At any point, whether during divorce process or in your teenage years or whatever, is there any point you felt like you were out of control? Not that you were acting out, but in other words, you just didn’t have control of your own life?

Emma: Yes, only when it was actually during the time of COVID We changed the schedule to be with our dad for a week and then my mom for a week, but this is when he was still an hour away and this was towards the end of COVID So again, my friends were hanging out at the time and I was at my dad’s house for a whole entire week. And I felt that’s when I was about to lose it, just about to ask my mom to stay with her all the time, but I mean, that wouldn’t have gone like anywhere. That’s the only time I remember thinking like, this is terrible.

Kevin: There’s no other time you weren’t trying to get your dad to bring you down to see your friends or go to events or stuff like that?

Emma: Oh, I mean there definitely was and all the time he would understandably, have to say no. It was his house that we were supposed to be at definitely all the time asking to hang out with people. I felt, first of all, so nervous to even ask to stay somewhere because he would normally get annoyed because he wanted time with us. So that was definitely extremely hard.

Kevin: What did you do when you’re at your father’s house? And again, it could have been either parent, but you’re primary living in one town with your mother, your friends, and then you go to your father’s house who’s an hour away, and it’s not an uncommon situation. What do you do? What’s it for? Like a weekend, you’re there?

Emma: Yeah.

Kevin: What do you do all weekend?

Emma: I remember Fridays, once we would get there, we would do like a pizza night and we’d all watch a movie. And then Saturdays, when I was younger, we would usually go to the park, take a bike ride, do chores, and then Sunday would be like church and I guess more relaxing.

Kevin: Would your dad be involved kind of doing stuff with you the whole weekend?

Emma: Yeah, definitely.

Kevin: I’ll hear stories about where the kids go to dad’s house. Unfortunately unfortunately it’s usually the dad. I mean, it’s not always, but they go to the dad’s house, it was in our way. And they sit around dad just does work or whatever, and the kids sit around and watch video games or play video games and they’re bored out of their mind, at least it sounds like you were very lucky that your dad.

Emma: Was like pretty involved and he definitely was. And again, I did have two other brothers, too, so the time wouldn’t a lot of it would be him playing sports with them or that was my choice and not wanting to do that with them. But no, both of my parents have been always pretty strict about phones and video games in the first place, so we were not the family to be disconnected like that.

Kevin: All right, well, I think it’s a good time for a break. When we come back, we’ll continue with our interview of Emma and her experience as a child of divorce.

Pat: Hey, podcast listeners. Are you thinking about divorce but are worried about the cost and animosity associated with the traditional divorce process? Well, Snap divorce has a better way for you to divorce. Through divorce mediation, snap Divorce eliminates everything bad about traditional divorce. With Snap Divorce, there is no court, no dueling lawyers, and no endless delays. Our experienced attorney mediators help you and your spouse resolve your divorce fairly easily and amicably. Best of all, Snap Divorce does it for a reasonable flat fee. Schedule your free consultation. Now@snapdivorce.com.

Kevin: We’Re back from our break. I’m Kevin Handy, and you’re listening to the Divorce Rulebook podcast. I’m here interviewing Emma, a young woman who experienced her parents divorce as a child. We’re just talking about sort of control and, you know, were there things that you felt like, you know, you tried to take control of your parents divorce and you were talking kind of got into that? You felt like you didn’t have control of your ability, I guess, to see your friends and stuff. Let me get into just sort of like, comfort and motion. I mean, were were there things that gave you comfort, you know, either during the divorce process or or afterwards, things that, you know, made you feel safe?

Emma: So definitely when I was younger, I had for me, it was like my American Girl dolls. I remember when I was really young, kindergarten or first grade, when I was having trouble going to my dad’s house, my mom gave me one of her stuffed animals from elementary school that she had throughout college. And I remember always really finding comfort in that at my dad’s house. I also think just things like pictures at the other person’s house of your other parent.

Kevin: So you had pictures of your mother at your father’s house and your father at your mother’s house?

Emma: Yeah, and I mean, mostly in my room, but yeah, definitely in my room. Not just all over the house.

Kevin: Actually, having done this for so long, it actually kind of surprised me because so many people are just so bitter, and they would freak out if there was a parent. A picture of their ex at the house, you mean?

Emma: And that would hurt a child for.

Kevin: The most part, it seems like your parents did it the right way.

Emma: Yeah.

Kevin: Let me ask you this. Was there anything tangible that could have been done to make your. Experience better with your parents being divorced?

Emma: Definitely. Of course, living closer. I think spreading, getting more even time when I was younger would have definitely changed. I would have a completely different relationship with my dad now.

Kevin: How so?

Emma: I would hope and think I’d be closer with him and I think I would just feel more comfortable with him in the first place and not have so much of a favoring towards my mom.

Kevin: Yeah. I talked about earlier about the book that said one of the top things to predict success children being coming out of divorce okay, was living ten minutes of each other. The other major factors actually having as close to a 50 50 custody arrangement as possible and living together makes living close, not living together, but living close to one another makes that possible. I personally, I’m very involved with my children. I couldn’t imagine not seeing them as much as possible. I feel lucky, obviously, that I’m able to be participating in my children’s life. But yeah, I mean, if you know, if you only see your dad every other weekend or your or your or maybe, you know, maybe it’s your mom, I mean, more commonly nowadays, actually, you’ll see that situation as well. You’re just not going to have a super close relationship with them. It’s just not possible.

Emma: Yeah.

Kevin: Did you ever fantasize about your parents getting back together?

Emma: So I didn’t. I mean, like I said, because I was very go with the flow with it, as in elementary school. I don’t remember ever thinking that way.

Kevin: Do you think it’s because you don’t really remember you’re so young that you don’t remember your parents having like that definitely great relationship or something? Not that they had a bad one, but you almost don’t remember it at all.

Emma: That’s probably a huge reason why. But it was also always I mean, my mom and my family has always just said what’s meant to be will be, or you will be with who you’re supposed to be with. And so at least when I was a little bit older, that definitely settled in and I just didn’t question that. And I do remember a little bit when my parents would talk, like face to face, they just didn’t seem like they were happy talking to each other. So why would I think excessively into that?

Kevin: What do you think your parents did right in handling their divorce?

Emma: I think the way they handled everything in private and in good time before we moved, it seemed like they worked together with it, through it.

Kevin: You were not involved. You didn’t know really even that they were getting divorced until they sit down, tell you, and then it was sort of like almost like a done.

Emma: Yeah. So it was all the way they did. It was private. I barely saw fighting, which was obviously an extreme help. I couldn’t even imagine more times than even hearing two fights that would be extremely traumatic.

Kevin: But after their divorce and they separated physically and you’re living with your mom mostly, at any point during that time, did they involve you in their I don’t want to say divorce because they’re already divorced, but did they ever involve you in their problems or their disputes over whatever custody or property or anything like that?

Emma: Not not hugely. I think when it came to extended family, like my grandparents, then I would hear bad things about the other parent.

Kevin: Or at least you would hear from your grandparents or your mom would be.

Emma: Talking sorry, my grandparents?

Kevin: Your grandparents with bad mouth?

Emma: Yes, like talking with I mean, in this situation, my dad and that was definitely like terrible. Like, I could barely listen to it.

Kevin: Well, I think it’s important that happens a lot. I mean, that’s one of the things these custody agreements you write up, they’ll often have like a stock provision that says the parties in their family won’t disparage the other person and then inevitably there’s like bad mouthing.

Emma: Yeah.

Kevin: How did it affect you?

Emma: I don’t even remember what grade. I would guess still late elementary school. That’s the first time I was actually overhearing the conversation with my dad and my grandparents. And I just remember I definitely cried after that, but I just remember being like, no, this is not right information. And then with I mean, both sides of my family, there are still certain relatives, whether it be my aunts or other grandparents, that completely whether they don’t talk to the other parent when they see them at school or graduation type stuff, it’s just very clear. And it’s hurtful when somebody that you love in your family just completely doesn’t talk to the other parent or even they’re just rude.

Kevin: Yeah, I’ve heard that. One of the most stressful situations for children of divorce is those situations where both their parents have to be there a school play, school graduation, a wedding in the future, something like that. It sounds to me like your parents got along pretty well, except but maybe there’s some extended family. Would you feel stressed about those situations?

Emma: I’m not a stressed child. I guess in the first place, I have to say that was never in my head beforehand of a certain event or even after. I don’t ever remember lingering remembering about when my family acted that way towards the other. But in the moment is when you can feel the tension. That’s always awkward. And I do have to say at events you just get used to, you go to, or at least after I dance, after dance competitions or dance for sight is you’ll go up to one side of your family, they’ll all be together, you say hi to them. And then you have to go to the other side of wherever your other parents side of the family. And so you just get used to talking to people separately.

Kevin: I guess did you ever feel like you had to be the referee or you had to be walking on eggshells to keep them separated so, like nothing blew up? Because I’ve heard again that’s like a very common thing for divorce. The child feels like their response somehow the burden is on them to keep the peace.

Emma: Yeah, not that dramatically. I think both my parents were mature enough to at least hold back their thoughts or something until they were alone and not in front of us. But I was lucky and didn’t have to feel that way.

Kevin: What, if anything, do you think your parents did wrong in handling their divorce?

Emma: I think now more of like as an adult, I would like more of an explanation for just the fact just for myself, like learning with my future relationships and just a little bit more understanding about what went wrong. Yeah, about what went wrong. And then of course, the moving. And even when my dad was trying to get a house for like four years, it seemed like he just kept saying he’d get a house and he wasn’t keeping his word.

Kevin: So that’s a common problem. Again, divorce parents tend to make promises to their children that they don’t keep, I’m going to spend time with you, I’m going to get a house, we’re going to move, I’m going to take you to event a big one. And it probably doesn’t apply to you, but a big one is like, hey, I’m going to show up and get you. And then there’s like they don’t show up. That’s really devastating to children that expect to go to whatever the fair with their dad and then dad cancels at the last minute.

Emma: Yeah.

Kevin: So I think this is a good time for break. When we come back, we’ll continue with our interview of Emma and her experience as a child of divorce.

Pat: Hey, podcast listeners. Are you thinking about divorce but are worried about the cost and animosity associated with the traditional divorce process? Well, Snap Divorce has a better way for you to divorce. Through divorce mediation. Snap divorce eliminates everything bad about traditional divorce. With Snap divorce, there is no court, no dueling lawyers, and no endless delays. Our experienced attorney mediators help you and your spouse resolve your divorce fairly easily and amicably. Best of all, Snap divorce does it for a reasonable flat fee. Schedule your free consultation. Now@snapdivorce.com.

Kevin: We’Re back from our break. I’m Kevin Handy and you’re listening to the Divorce Rulebook podcast. I’m here interviewing Emma, a young adult who experienced her parents divorce as a child. Have your feelings about your parents divorce changed over time?

Emma: I used to not understand again behind why they got divorced and I would just be more go with the flow with it because of the misunderstanding. And now I do recognize the good in it that they did need to split up for obviously a reason. But I also now recognize more of the pain and hurt that they went through. And that definitely translates more on it translated more onto me as I saw them living alone, now older. So for me, it probably got harder the more I tried to, I guess, understand it or became more mature, I think, because you do now know what divorce is and how bad it can be.

Kevin: Have either your parents met anyone else and remarried?

Emma: So my mom, she got remarried I was 14. But then she she ended up getting divorced two years later. We were we are a blended family, and then now we’re living, like, alone, just with her and my brothers again. But that felt because it was only two years, that didn’t feel like a lot. And my dad has dated somebody for he dated her for, I think, five years for, like, a while, but so, yeah.

Kevin: Did you ever have any problems with your parents, like, dating someone else?

Emma: So I never thought of it in the way that I see a lot of people, or at least friends think about it as, like, you’re not my mom. Why aren’t you acting that way? But I definitely think sometimes it was it just didn’t feel like a true second, like mom or dad figure. They just felt like a person, just whether it was in the house or you just didn’t feel a connection or close with them. How you would expect to feel with your parents in the first place.

Kevin: The way I think of usually is like, kids again, I think goes back because you are so young. Older children think like, well, you’re trying to replace mom or you’re trying to replace dad or like, you know, you sort of like because I think a lot of older kids have that fantasy that their kids are going to get back. I think a lot of older kids have the fantasy that their parents are going to get back together, and if there’s someone else in the picture, that sort of throws a monkey wrench into that fantasy.

Emma: Right.

Kevin: You touched on this a little earlier, but did your parents divorce affect your ability to form relationships or, like, date, you know, or anything like that? You’ve mentioned you, like, you know yeah. You’re concerned about, you know, I guess I’m gonna say potential divorce in the future, but, you know no, I forget exactly what you put.

Emma: But no, I know you get the gist of it. I definitely feel the need to find the perfect person. I’m extremely picky with it, and I do find I don’t know if this is a correlation with it, but I think the psychology behind relationships in the first place, I’m really interested in, and I think that definitely could be because subconsciously and consciously just do not want a divorce to happen to me. Even though my parents divorce wasn’t that bad. I just don’t want to be, I guess, living alone, like, both my parents are now.

Kevin: So when you get married or what, you want it to be forever?

Emma: Yeah. Extremely picky with who I’m with, unless you’re by Sid.

Kevin: But do you have any besides your cautiousness about relationships, do you have any other lingering issues because of the divorce?

Emma: I definitely think, like I just said, they’re now alone for weeks at a time. I definitely have a constant feeling guilty or feeling bad for almost leaving them alone. And when I am with them, I do feel like I have to spend a lot of time with them to make up for the love they’re not getting from a significant other.

Kevin: Again. Something else you hear commonly is that parents who get divorced will often put a lot of pressure on their kids to sort of make up for the spouse that’s missing. The children almost take the place of the partner in life. It sounds like you feel that.

Emma: I feel that, and I know both my parents don’t try and make it that way, but even like, when I’m out with friends or something, I do. And now that my brothers and I are all older, if we’re all ever out, I just feel so bad that my parents like home alone and I’m with them that week and I’m not making I guess time for them, even though I should be, like, having fun when I’m out.

Kevin: What advice would you give parents out there who are listening and thinking about getting divorced?

Emma: Definitely try and do the divorce paperwork and all of that in the most possible privacy.

Kevin: I think we’re saying keep your kids out of it.

Emma: Yes, keep your kids out of that. Definitely keep the fighting to the littlest amount you can. And definitely when you’re explaining that you’re getting divorced in the first place, I think it definitely depends on the age, so take that into consideration. But I would say don’t over explain it and take little backhanded comments or anything like that. But also don’t just say we’re splitting up and that’s it, because I think you do owe them a little bit more of an explanation than that. And then I just say live close and be flexible about especially with kids events and understanding like people will not you cannot always be on time with.

Kevin: Everything for the flexibility.

Emma: Yeah.

Kevin: All right. Is there anything else you’d like to add?

Emma: No.

Kevin: Well, Emma, thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with me for this interview.

Emma: Yes, thank you.

Kevin: You’re off to college soon, correct?

Emma: Yes, I am.

Kevin: Well, I wish you the best.

Emma: Thank you.

Kevin: I’m Kevin Handy. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Divorce Rulebook podcast.

Pat: Hey, podcast listeners. If you found this podcast helpful, please hit the subscribe button. If you’d like to connect with us or have an idea for a show, you can send us an email at podcast@snapdoovors.com. You can also check out our website and blog@snapdivores.com. And if you’ve enjoyed our show, please take a moment to rate us on itunes, Apple, Podcasts, Spotify, or whichever podcast app you use. Until next time, thanks for listening.