Dealing with your spouse during the divorce process can be one of the most difficult aspects of getting divorced.  It can be anywhere from difficult to an absolute nightmare. In this episode of the Divorce Rulebook Podcast Pat and Kevin discuss the best ways to deal with your spouse during the divorce process.

Episode 11 Transcript:

Kevin: Hello and welcome to the Divorce Rulebook podcast. I’m Kevin Handy. I’m a divorce attorney with over 20 years of legal experience and the founder and CEO of Snap Divorce, a modern divorce mediation firm with attorney mediators throughout the United States.

Pat: And I’m Pat Cooley. I’m also a divorce attorney. I have more than 30 years of family law experience then I’m the lead attorney mediator at Snap Divorce.

Kevin: If you’re thinking about divorce, we’re in the midst of one. This podcast is for you. We’re hoping to give you the information you need to successfully navigate the divorce process and avoid the numerous pitfalls that await you.

Pat: So please join us for this episode of the Divorce Rulebook podcast.

Kevin: I’m Kevin.

Pat: And I’m Pat.

Kevin: And this is Episode Eleven of the Divorce Rulebook podcast, How to Deal with Your Spouse During Your Divorce. Dealing with your spouse during the divorce process can be one of the most difficult aspects of getting divorced, somewhere between difficult and uncomfortable to an absolute nightmare. And it’s because our spouses really know how to push our buttons. And there’s also a natural inclination to disagree with one another during the divorce process. Divorce activates the flight or fight response and most people opt for fighting. The divorce process is also designed to be adversarial. It’s set up to cause conflict. Sort of an I win, you lose proposition. There’s lawyers, there’s judges who are going to declare who’s right. And there’s all these people in the background, your friends, your family telling you, don’t get screwed, hire a lawyer. Fight for everything you’re entitled to. And so it really creates an atmosphere of distrust and hatred. And divorce really activates a flight or fight mean. What do you see, Pat?

Pat: Well, I agree with you. The problems I think are is that on the level of a marriage where it’s intact, the people are getting along, you still have a little bit of conflict. But in a divorce, you kind of let go of any care or concern for the other side and you’re more focused on yourself and protecting your future. So I think definitely more animosity between.

Kevin: Yeah, I think that’s what I just mentioned sort of divorce sets up that flight or fight response. And I’m going to say the vast majority fall into the fight response as opposed to flight. I mean, there are people who put their heads in the sand and their technique for dealing with the divorce is just to ignore it and hope it, hope it goes away. But most people are going to put up that fight. And I think that comes a lot from the divorce process itself. It’s set up to be adversarial. The idea that you have to hire a lawyer, you’re going to go to court, you got to prove who wins. There’s the I win, you lose aspect of divorce. All these people that you, you’ll talk to will say, hey, don’t get screwed. You know, my, I knew you know my brother in law, he got screwed by his wife. Immediately your back is up and you’re thinking, this is the fight of my life. I have to protect myself.

Pat: It raises two interesting things, one of which is and I tell people when I hear stories like that, no case is the same, so don’t worry about what happened to your brother in law or your neighbor or your ex friend. Focus on your case. Also, like you said, judge Kane used to say, somebody’s going to win big and somebody’s going to lose big. And neither of you know.

Kevin: Know, having seen lots of divorces, I don’t really think that typically one side wins and the other side doesn’t. It usually comes out pretty even. Pretty what I would say pretty fair, right. I mean, there’s occasional cases, but usually where something I’m going to say, lopsided or crazy happens, it’s because one of the parties has been a jerk or has done stuff to sabotage themselves. In your normal case, it’s going to generally be a fair result, and you.

Pat: Can expect to have to move off your position. Most people will start setting positions so far apart from each other, and you got to expect to move towards the middle. And don’t expect it to land in the middle because somebody might be being more unreasonable than the other, but both are going to have to compromise.

Kevin: Other things that will make dealing with their spouse very difficult are distrust, hatred, wanting to antagonize the other person or get even. You see a lot of that in divorces. The idea that, oh, she did this, thereafter I have to get even, whatever it be, file a petition, take the kids, win some property, whatever. There’s the idea, I got to get back at the other person.

Pat: Yeah. And that causes a more litigious atmosphere. If we can get people to step back and accept that, okay, I lost that one, but it’s not about getting even. It’s about winning the next one or.

Kevin: Focus on the big picture.

Pat: Exactly.

Kevin: There’s no one’s keeping the score point by point. It’s what happens overall. And sort of that gets into another point, is I think there’s a big perception as people are going through divorce, especially when there’s like, animosity going on. And distrust is the idea that what’s good for them is bad for me, or what’s good for me is bad for them. So you’ll see proposals thrown out and people will immediately react, well, if they’re proposing, if my wife’s proposing that, it must be bad for me. And they don’t look at the whole situation and think like, hey, could this be a win for both of us?

Pat: A lot of lawyer time is spent trying to get clients to get some perspective and not to be in just that fight mode. Get some perspective, look at it, and see if it actually is good for you as well as your spouse.

Kevin: Sometimes during a divorce, process, your spouse will actively try and undermine you with the court, with your children, financially, emotionally. So all those come into play as well. And so for this podcast, how do you avoid or at least minimize all these pitfalls? So what we’re going to cover in this podcast is when you should deal with your spouse directly and when you should use an intermediary such as a lawyer to help you deal with your spouse. What sorts of bad behavior are common and how should you react, how should you behave irrespective of what your spouse is doing? And finally, we’re going to go over Mr. Goldman’s rules for dealing with your spouse. And Mr. Goldman in our area was a longtime divorce attorney, and he came up with this great list of rules for dealing with your spouse. So we’re going to go over them at the end of the podcast. So we’re going to take a brief break. And when we come back, we’re going to start with when you should deal with your spouse directly and when you should use an intermediary such as a lawyer to help you deal with your spouse.

Pat: Hey, podcast listeners. Are you thinking about divorce but are worried about the cost and animosity associated with the traditional divorce process? Well, Snap Divorce has a better way for you to divorce. Through divorce mediation, snap divorce eliminates everything bad about traditional divorce. With Snap divorce, there is no court, no dueling lawyers, and no endless delays. Our experienced attorney mediators help you and your spouse resolve your divorce fairly easily and amicably. Best of all, Snapdorce does it for a reasonable flat fee. Schedule your free consultation now@snapdivorce.com.

Kevin: Okay, we’re back. So let’s start with the idea of when should you deal with your spouse directly versus use someone else like a lawyer to help you deal with your spouse. I’m going to throw out there’s two categories of people. One, people who can deal with their spouse directly. Most are all the time, and then people who just really should be using someone else to help them, a lawyer or someone else, a mediator. So what do you think about that, Pat?

Pat: Yeah, it’s definitely two categories of people. And there are reasons why some people can deal directly with each other and some can’t. Dealing directly with one another, if you’re able to do that, will definitely be beneficial. Because the goal here is to avoid litigation and seek mutual agreement.

Kevin: It’s often easier to move the case along if you can deal with your spouse directly yourself. A lot of times clients will come in. They have the perception that they have to use a lawyer for everything. They’ll start off their case, and they’ll have the lawyer writing to the spouse about every little issue. Hey, they didn’t bring back my child’s clothes, or they’re not changing a diaper frequently enough, or Can I get in the house to get my personal belongings back? And in those cases. A lot of times it’s totally unnecessary. They could just be talking to their spouse directly and all of a sudden it’s very expensive to be using a lawyer to deal with your spouse on those little issues, right.

Pat: And a lot of people don’t realize and the fees will build up fairly quickly. So you’ve got to really think before calling that intermediary and see if it’s something you can at least approach directly.

Kevin: I just want to go back to the thought that I had earlier, which is really that often people who should be dealing with their spouse directly and can deal with their spouse directly end up using lawyers because they just have the mindset, oh, I got to use a lawyer, I’m in a divorce. And a lot of times the people who should be using a lawyer end up trying to deal with their spouse directly, themselves, because maybe they’re afraid of their spouse or they’re concerned about upsetting them or the spouse has some sort of control over them. So I think that’s sort of an interesting point and you need to know your situation. I would say overall, if you have a fairly decent working relationship with your spouse, even if things aren’t great, if you can talk to each other, think twice about using a lawyer, especially on dealing with minor issues, because it’s going to get expensive. Like Pat just said, it gets very expensive very quickly. I don’t know how many times people have come in to see me. They’ve retained me for a divorce. Next thing though, they’re calling me three times a day asking me, hey, can you email my spouse’s lawyer about this, can you write about that? And I’ll say, you should consider doing this yourself. Oh, no, I can’t do that. And next thing I know, they’ve gone through their retainer and they’ve learned a hard lesson is that they should be doing these things themselves.

Pat: Yeah, that’s right. I mean, maybe one way to say it is deal directly if you can, don’t expect to win all the time. If to deal directly with your spouse, you’ve got to be able to listen as well as speak and don’t sweat the small stuff. I mean, you’re not going to win every issue and paying your lawyer to fight over insignificant issues is just costly. And again, somebody’s going to win the issue and somebody’s going to lose. So if it’s an issue like he’s giving my child a pacifier and I don’t want my child to have a pacifier, it’s just not worth lawrence going.

Kevin: To create more animosity as know, I’ve seen spouses get upset like, hey, you’re costing me a lot of you. Why is your lawyer running to my lawyer all the time about these issues? Just deal with me directly.

Pat: But there are those cases, Kevin, where the parties don’t stand on equal footing in the marriage, and personality wise is one of them, where one is particularly controlling, and the other is submissive. And so direct communication sometimes is difficult.

Kevin: Yeah. So that was the other second category of people I had mentioned earlier, was people who should really be using a lawyer most or all of the time. And in those relationships that call for using a lawyer, there tends to be sort of a big imbalance of power, financial negotiating skills. One spouse likes to antagonize the other one. Maybe they threaten them. And so in those cases, there’s an overall need to be cautious and not let the other spouse’s power perceive power, make you make bad decisions.

Pat: And I’ve had clients get in situations where the other spouse doesn’t want to go through the attorney and, you know, the client wants to go through the attorney. And often I’ll say communication can be listening, too. So it’s not a bad idea to listen to what the person has to say and take note of it, because then that can sometimes be used in the divorce process to get an idea of where they’re coming from without actually having to make any concessions directly.

Kevin: You’re saying you should listen to what your spouse has to say and then go back to your lawyer.

Pat: That’s right. Tell your lawyer and don’t make any concessions in the conversation. And sometimes that’s an easier way to communicate without actually having to make a commitment.

Kevin: Yeah, just in those situations we mentioned earlier where there’s an imbalance of power, you need to be very careful not to agree to anything, not to sign anything, and to go back and check with your lawyer.

Pat: What if my lawyer says I shouldn’t talk to my spouse? That’s a question I get a lot of times. Don’t talk to your spouse. Let’s go through lawyers. What do you do about that?

Kevin: I’m sorry. You’re saying the other side is saying don’t talk to yeah, if the other.

Pat: Side’S lawyer says, my client’s not allowed to talk to your client or tells their client, don’t talk to your spouse directly, go through the lawyers.

Kevin: Yeah, I see that, I guess fairly frequently that the other lawyers, I want to say unnecessarily trying to control their client, and I’ll just tell my client that, hey, go and talk to your spouse.

Pat: Because remember, giving the message directly, it doesn’t get filtered if you go through other people. And with lawyers, you tell your lawyer, lawyer tells the other lawyer, the message can get kind of dwindled down or not presented the same.

Kevin: Yeah. I think to clarify for our listeners, what we’re talking about here is frequently we’ll see cases where we think that our client and the other side can possibly talk to one another and possibly reach agreements together, or maybe, perhaps as a lawyer, I’ve been sending settlement proposals the other side or asking for information. We’re not getting any response. And there are lawyers out there. It’s not uncommon that the lawyer will not pass on settlement proposals to their clients. The lawyer will be trying to control the decisions made in the divorce, and therefore they’re going to only provide their clients partial information or no information at all. You might call up and say, hey, here’s a proposal. And the lawyer will just say no without even running by their client.

Pat: Right. That’s the real concern. I was just going to say is a lawyer that answers without running it.

Kevin: Yeah. And that happens. I mean, I think it happens frequently.

Pat: I do too.

Kevin: And I know for sure that I’ve sent out settlement proposals that don’t make it to the client, that they’re just ignored or thrown in the drawer by the lawyer. And so frequently, those lawyers will tell their clients, don’t talk to the other side. Everything should go through me. And if there’s not a bad relationship, there’s absolutely no reason not to talk to the other side. In fact, that’s the way settlements are reached frequently. So, yeah, I’ll just say, like, look, go talk to your spouse and say your lawyer said it’s fine to talk to each other. If we can reach an agreement, that’s great.

Pat: Right.

Kevin: One other reason to use a lawyer to deal with your spouse would be to really put that filter between you and your spouse and to reduce stress. So if you’re not familiar with the litigation process, typically each side files pleadings in court and might be for custody or to get, say, exclusive possession of the house. And a lot of times the allegations made in those petitions can be really nasty, exaggerated. Sometimes they’re outright falsehoods. And when you get those in the mail, it can be incredibly upsetting, or you get a settlement proposal that lays out what you think is a completely unfair case or an outrageous amount of alimony. And those things happen all the time. I mean, it’s part of the negotiation process, part of the litigation process. It can be incredibly helpful to have someone filter that information for you just to reduce your stress and to interpret it for you.

Pat: Yeah, that’s right. Because sometimes you get something like that, and if you don’t understand and you just get angrier, anxious, your attorney can soften the blow, so to speak, and let you know. Like, if it’s an outrageous proposal, then your attorney can send it to you and say, this is an outrageous proposal, so that you don’t just get upset by it and think that it’s something that could possibly happen.

Kevin: Yeah. I had a client that she described going to the mailbox to me. She said, every time I go to a mailbox, if I see a letter from you, your law firm, I just get this pit in my stomach and my stress level goes sky high because I don’t know what’s going to be inside of it. Is it going to be some nasty letter from the other side, some pleading that says I’m a bad person? And as lawyers we’re used to sort of seeing that sort of thing whereas as a layperson it can be pretty upsetting. I mean even as a lawyer I’ll see things that make my blood boil. I’m used to the litigation process and the posturing and all that kind of stuff. So if you fall into those categories really put your lawyer between you and your spouse. So let’s move on to what sort of typical behaviors can you expect from your spouse during the divorce process? Bad behaviors I’m talking about and how can you respond to them or how should you respond to them. Go through a list and these are all pretty much typical behaviors you see in divorces and having some knowledge of them in advance may help you not take it too personally if you see this in your case because like I said, they are common behaviors that occur during the divorce process. So number one I had cutting off finances or cutting off financial support. So what do you think about that Pat?

Pat: Well that can be extremely frightening, extremely anxiety provoking because obviously we all need financial resources just to survive. So when that happens you can see panic. Best thing to do is call your attorney because there’s options. You can get help with support so that you can get money coming in to take care of your immediate needs. You can get help with getting funds actually to help you in the litigation with litigation costs so the court can order in advance of funds in that way. These are some of the things you want to do. There are things you can do to try to secure yourself. Also if there’s assets available to you still you may be able to secure some of those assets yourself. So there’s a lot of things that you want to do but just don’t give up. I mean obviously it’s a frightening thing to have your finances cut off.

Kevin: Yeah. So typically what you tend to hear from your client is my spouse stopped putting their paycheck direct deposit into the joint account and everything’s paid out of that account and now my spouse says I’m going to have to pay for everything. Like something along those lines. As Pat said. As Pat said that maneuver is incredibly common in divorce and the court systems are set up to deal with that. As Pat said talk to your lawyer. You’re going to be able to file for support, maybe get an advance on a distribution from a bank account. The key is not to panic.

Pat: All right?

Kevin: Number two, putting children in the middle of things. That’s a common one.

Pat: Yeah. And a big no no if I do say so. You will damage your children if you engage them in the conflict. Ultimately. I don’t know any psychologist or expert that has ever said that children should be involved.

Kevin: The number one, the way you see this happen typically is that parents should use the children to pass messages back and forth.

Pat: That’s right.

Kevin: Tell your mother I’m not doing that. Or tell your father he’s not going to see you anymore.

Pat: Whatever the case may be, another one is support. Hey, dad, can I have some cotton candy at the fair? No, I pay support to your mother. I can’t afford it. That’s putting your child in the middle.

Kevin: Yeah. And it goes along. Same thing with badmouthing tempting to alienate your mother. This divorce is her fault. She had an affair, she left me. She’s taking everything I have. That sort of thing. Number one, I’d say, I’ll tell you.

Pat: Using children like that. I used to appear before a custody conference officer who would always say to the parents that if you do these things, your children will not only hate the other spouse, but they will hate you, too. So what he was trying to get across to the parents was, you’re damaging your children and you’re damaging both your relationship with their children and that of the other parent.

Kevin: Yeah, I don’t know if it really works, actually. It’s usually the parent who’s doing the bad mouthing that ends up looking bad in the eyes of the children. I’m not sure it’s really effective in actually alienating the other parent. At least that’s the research I’ve seen.

Pat: I think that’s true. Unfortunately, sometimes with older children, they might more likely tend to take sides.

Kevin: Yeah. So if things like that are going on, badmouthing tempting to alienate, how would you deal with that?

Pat: Well, I mean, you can ask for the court to order as part of a custody. It’s in most of our custody agreements or orders that the parents are not allowed to alienate each other. Parental alienation is one of the things the court is going to look at, one of the factors they’re going to look at to determine custody. So you ask for more custodial time to limit the bad behavior. There are online communication facilities. One’s called our Family Wizard. I’ve had courts order people to use that, and that way they’re putting everything in writing, and everything that’s put in writing will appear before the court. So you get a little bit of that’s, a little bit of protection. A little bit, yeah.

Kevin: But usually a lot of this stuff is going on behind closed doors. It’s not the communication between the parties of divorce, but it’s when one parent has the children. And a lot of times it’s actually one of the parents parents, the grandparents, or the family that’s also involved in the badmouthing.

Pat: You could get the court’s intervention. It might take a little persistence, but eventually the court will hear and do something. But really the only way to stop somebody from talking badly about somebody else is to limit their contact with the children.

Kevin: Yeah. In my notes I just had, make sure you keep records of things that are happening. So when you do go to court. You’re prepared. So you say, on this date, my children reported that their father said X, Y, and Z, or I overheard this, or here’s an email, and then yeah, I think the only thing you can really do is go to court and try and reduce the other parents time. It is very difficult to get parents to stop. Badmouthing.

Pat: Yeah. And badmouthing back in retaliation doesn’t work either. So really, as the parent who’s not doing the bad mouthing, you want to.

Kevin: Just give a you got to turn the other cheek. Really?

Pat: Yes.

Kevin: A lot of times, let things slide and just you have to be the bigger person.

Pat: You want to disprove what the other parent’s saying through your behavior. The children will see your behavior directly, be respectful, use good behavior, and ultimately, hopefully, the children will make the right decision.

Kevin: All right, so the next one I had down was the spouse who litigates and fights about everything. So how do you deal with that type of person? Well, they’re out there. I mean, some people want to take every single thing to court.

Pat: Right. So one of the first things to do is to step back and make sure you weigh the importance of the issue they want to litigate so you don’t have to fight about everything. You can give in on some of the little stuff that doesn’t really matter. Try not to engage them. Try not to fight what they want if it doesn’t really matter. So concede where you can, I think, is what I’m saying.

Kevin: Yeah. Try to avoid engaging. Let things slide. You’re just going to have to be methodical about moving through your case and try not to do anything that would allow the other side to take you to court. So it might be being careful with making sure you complete your discovery. It doesn’t seem right that you have to be careful when your spouse is the one who’s sort of ready to go to court in a moment’s notice, but there’s not much you can do. You can’t control your spouse’s behavior. So you just have to not give them the opportunity to be litigious with you, to fight with you.

Pat: And more often than not, the courts will recognize if only one party is being that litigious person and unreasonable person, if you’re both being unreasonable and litigious, you’re not going to get the attention of the court.

Kevin: Yeah, and I go back to if you do have a litigious spouse, someone who wants to fight about everything, I go back to the use your lawyers the filter, because, again, it may be tempting for you to say, like, I want to fight this, too. It may be tempting for you to want to fight about everything too that your spouse is bringing up. But if you have a lawyer that’s being your filter, they can just kind of ignore issues and set them aside and not worry about them. All right, so what about the spouse who puts their head in the sand and doesn’t want to move the case forward? How do you deal with that type of spouse?

Pat: Well, that can be difficult. Persistence within reason. You want to stick to the rules of court. One of the biggest ways people are dilatory in cases, delaying, going slow is in the discovery process. Before you go into court, you got to be able and ready to present to the court the facts of the case. What are the assets, what are the values. So we have a process, a discovery process, and I’m sure you can address this, but that can be the most difficult and the most tactically delaying process for people who just aren’t going to cooperate.

Kevin: Absolutely. And that can be one of the most frustrating aspects of divorce, is when the other side is not responding to your requests, won’t respond to proposals. You just have to be methodical in moving your case forward and make sure your lawyer is constantly moving your case forward. If discovery is a problem, try alternate ways of discovery. Instead of asking your spouse to produce documents, maybe your lawyer can send out subpoenas to the companies and banks that you need documents from. Those are just some ideas. But yeah, those cases can be tough to move forward and you just have to constantly whittle away at the case to move it forward. Do you have anything else on that?

Pat: Just to try to keep in mind that the case will move however slowly it will move. And as we said, be methodical. Stick to the deadlines, you’ll get to the end. Try not to get frustrated.

Kevin: Yeah, I’ve had clients, and I know you’ve had clients that they don’t want to move the divorce forward for some reason. Maybe they don’t want the divorce.

Pat: Right.

Kevin: And so maybe it’s not to their advantage because they’re getting support that’s going to be cut off when the divorce happens. So there actually may be a tactical reason besides not wanting to deal with the divorce that the other side isn’t responding to proposals or document requests. So just keep that in mind. All right. So last category I had was really the harassment. The spouse who likes to harass, to stalk, threaten. This is the really bad actor. So what do you think about that? How do you deal with them?

Pat: Or how do you right. Well calls to mind a funny story where I’ve talked to clients in the past. And let’s say before cell phones were so popular in texts and emails, they’d be on the phone with their spouse and then they would call me and complain about the spouse, what they were saying, how they were saying it. They’re yelling, they’re cursing, they’re this and that. And I would say to them something that never even occurred to them, just hang up. So remember, if you’re being harassed, cut off. That means of. Communication, at least until the person can deal with you in a mature manner. And I would say, say on the phone, you’re angry, you’re upset, you’re screaming at me. I’m not going to talk to you until you calm down. I’m going to hang up now and hang up and you’d be surprised at how many people were surprised that they were allowed to hang up on their spouses.

Kevin: Yeah. And if it’s in person, you can walk away. You don’t have to engage with them. I think the advent or now that most people use email or text messaging of ring video cameras, it’s a lot harder to get away with the harassment. Right. I had a client whose husband, ex husband was harassing her and he would pull up in front of the house playing like songs that had threatening lyrics and get out of the car and make brute gestures. But she had a ring doorbell and so it’s all on video, right. So it’s hard to get away from that. It’s harder to get away with that nowadays and the courts for the most.

Pat: Part won’t tolerate it. So if you do have that evidence of the ring doorbell or security cameras, they’re very useful in litigation to make it stop, to have the court make it stop.

Kevin: And the thing I tell clients all the time is if you’ve got a spouse who is going to be verbally harassing or put everything in writing, only communicate with them through text messages or emails. Now you have to make sure your own text messages and emails are clean because they will appear as an exhibit in a court hearing. As often I tell people you cannot say anything nasty in a text message. It’s very hard to resist doing. And so every time, no matter what your spouse writes, you have to make sure your response is professional, to the point and doesn’t give them any ammunition to bring to court.

Pat: And you know, I’m just going to mention it doesn’t hurt sometimes to have somebody else look at your reply before you hit the send button. Because I have found in several of my cases that my own clients don’t have the right perception of what they’re responding to and they don’t realize how bad their own response is. And they’ve demanded I use a chain of emails in court that makes them look worse than the other spouse.

Kevin: Right.

Pat: Use caution.

Kevin: Yeah. And actually I had written down here some about if you are tempted to say something back nasty. It’s like that old adage about like hey, write everything down, say everything you want to say, but then sit aside and then come back later and throw that away and then write the clean response and get it out but don’t send it.

Pat: That’s right.

Kevin: But yeah, Pat, you’re right. I mean, I’ve had the same thing. Clients will say, oh, I got this string of emails or text messages. It’s going to be an exhibit. It’s going to make my spouse look bad. And you read it and you’re know your client looks as bad or worse, they don’t have the sense of the perception of, like they wrote looks just as bad.

Pat: Right. And understandably, because emotions kind of blind you. So, again, have a buddy to check what you’re going to send out before you send.

Kevin: All right, I think that kind of ends that section. Let’s take another quick break, and when we get back, we’re going to discuss how you should behave irrespective of what your spouse is doing. And then we’re going to go over Mr. Goldman’s roles for dealing with your spouse during divorce.

Pat: Hey, podcast listeners. Are you thinking about divorce but are worried about the cost and animosity associated with the traditional divorce process? Well, Snap Divorce has a better way for you to divorce through divorce mediation. Snap divorce eliminates everything bad about traditional divorce. With Snap divorce, there is no court, no dueling lawyers, and no endless delays. Our experienced attorney mediators help you and your spouse resolve your divorce fairly easily and amicably. Best of all, Snapdivorce does it for a reasonable flat fee. Schedule your free consultation now@snapdivorce.com.

Kevin: Okay, we’re back. So now we’re going to get into how you should behave irrespective of what your spouse is doing. And so the first thing I have written down is follow the Golden Rule. And for those of you don’t know, the Golden Rule is do unto others as you would have done unto you. So no matter how badly your spouse is acting, you should treat your spouse like you would want to be treated. Now, that’s going to be incredibly difficult, but in the long run, it will pay off.

Pat: Yeah. And your communication should be short to the point and not contain any extraneous information. Be professional and assume that a judge is going to be reading it.

Kevin: I’m not just talking communication, too. I’m talking everything. In other words, responding to discovery. Even if your spouse hasn’t responded fully, maybe they’ve given the most scant answers possible. Make sure you respond fully and completely. If your spouse wants maybe a little bit of extra time with the kids or has to be late, cut them slack. You say, yes, I’ll give you some extra time. Be flexible. And your spouse may not be doing that, but this will build up goodwill over time, and it’ll be difficult. But being the bigger person is going to pay off in your case later on, be the grown up. I’ve written that down, and Pat mentioned this earlier. You have to be the mature person. If your spouse is badmouthing you, you don’t badmouth them. You set a good example for your children. And remember, if you have children, you are going to be stuck dealing with this person basically for the rest of your life. They may be little kids now, but guess what? You’re going to have to be going to high school graduations and the other parents going to be there, maybe weddings in the future. So the extent you can keep things cordial and flexible now, it’s going to pay off later. And then I have one in doubt use your attorney. So if you are tempted to say bad things or you’re having difficulty dealing with your spouse, go through your attorney and use your attorney to filter and temper things down.

Pat: And there’s a reason we say all of this, one of which, of course, is hopefully if you’re dealing respectfully with your spouse, they’ll come around, but if they don’t, your image, the court’s perspective of you will be better and you will be given more credibility in court because you’ve behaved properly.

Kevin: I go back to the custody example. So when your spouse insists on sticking to the custody schedule to the latter, no, this is my weekend. You can’t switch weekends if you show flexibility when they reach out, and inevitably they will reach out and say, hey, can I switch weekends? You can then bring all of your flexibility to the court six months later, a year later, and say, look, I want to have more time with the children. I want to change the custody schedule. And you can say, look how flexible I am. And I’m encouraging the children’s relationship with the other parent. And the court will look at those things and they’re going to look at you favorably. And so it’s going to pay off in the long run. Your children are going to be thankful for it as well. There’s nothing worse than a child got an invite to a birthday party or something and then the other parent won’t let them go because it’s their time. The children are going to remember those sorts of things. And down the road, if there’s a custody evaluation or when the children get older and they can choose who they’re going to live with, it’s going to affect those decisions.

Pat: That’s right. And it will reflect in the results.

Kevin: All right. So should we go into Mr. Goldman’s rules?

Pat: I think that’s a good idea. Who’s Mr. Goldman? Well, Mr. Goldman was an attorney very early on in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. Spent a good part of 50 years of his life doing family law, divorces, and domestic work. And in the course of that practice, he developed a certain list of ways you should deal with your spouse. And I’m sure he developed them after experiencing some of the difficulties we’ve just gone over.

Kevin: Pat and I both have in front of us a typewritten handout that he used to give out. And we keep a copy in our files and occasionally we’ll give it to our client, answer, email it to him now. But this was a typewriting piece of paper he would hand to his clients, right?

Pat: That’s right.

Kevin: So these are all great advice and they’re just as applicable today as they were back when he wrote them. Let’s start with number one. If love is gone, substitute politeness. So you want to comment on that?

Pat: Yeah, just be nice. I mean, it’s hard. You’re breaking up a relationship, love. And they say there’s no finer line than between love and hate. But don’t go to that hate side. Be polite. This is now, as we said, someone that you have to deal with. It’s a person, and you’re going to dissolve your marriage, but do it politely.

Kevin: Do it without trying to try and take the emotion out of it. It’s hard to do because you were in a relationship with this person. But to the lawyers from the court, this is going to be a business transaction. And if you keep it professional, it’s going to help you in the long run.

Pat: You know, Kevin, give me a minute. Let me just put this in a little bit of context for the people. I think his lead in paragraph is really helpful. It says, divorce tends to bring out the worst in people self interest. Apparently justifies deceptions and outright lies, which would be intolerable to nice people in ordinary times. Self protection requires a new set of guidelines for dealing with your legal adversary. What its goal here is, is to show you that while there’s some tendency for divorce to bring out the worst in you, that you’re better off if you follow these simple rules.

Kevin: Right.

Pat: So what’s the second one?

Kevin: Kevin so number two is be skeptical. Half of what is said is meant to deceive you, and the other half is self deception. What do you think he means by that?

Pat: Well, I think people do, in some regards, deceive themselves about their merit of their case, about their worth, about being the righteous person. I mean, not everybody’s perfect, and you got to accept that. Don’t take everything as an attack. Right.

Kevin: Well, let’s start with the first half is half of what is said is meant to deceive you. And I think that’s fairly true. It gets into when you get pleadings or letters from the other side or settlement proposals. There’s going to be half truths in there. Stuff is going to be intentionally admitted, there’ll be exaggerations, and it’s meant to deceive you or at least convince you that maybe the other side has a stronger case. So you can’t believe everything that you read. For the most part, you shouldn’t even take it that seriously, especially allegations that are nasty and stuff about you. Now, the other half, it says the other half is self deception. And I think that gets into cognitive bias. Really. You and I see this all the time. People come in and they think that they’ve got the greatest case or they’re not going to have to pay support, and they’ll have read something on the internet that they believe supports their case, and they don’t want to listen to what you have to say as a lawyer. I mean, how many times have you had a client come in, pay you for advice, and then completely ignore you because they don’t want to believe it?

Pat: Often, I mean, there are certain clients that go from attorney to attorney to attorney just waiting for someone to agree with them. Obviously, attorneys probably consistently tell them the same thing, so they end up eventually accepting it. But I think that’s part of self deception is that you can have it your way.

Kevin: Yeah. The quicker you can listen to the advice of professionals and accept that that’s reality, the better off you’re going to be. All right. Number three, breast your cards. Don’t let your spouse know how much you know. What do you think he means by that?

Pat: Well, that’s a good question. I feel like we start to develop certain strategies, and revealing everything at the get go can kind of ruin your case.

Kevin: I can’t think of an example I can think of is, like, we’ll run support calculations for clients, and let’s say we run the calculations like, okay, we think that you’re going to get $1,000 a month in support. You don’t necessarily want to go and run and tell your spouse you’re going to get $1,000 a month support because from our perspective, that’s probably what we think is the realistic amount. But if we’re writing to the other side, the other party’s attorney, we’re going to say, we think our clients entitled to $1,500 a month support. It goes back to what? Number two, which is half of what is said is meant to deceive you. So there’s negotiation tactics and stuff. So if you go right to your spouse and say, I think my lawyer said I’ll get $1,000, well, your spouse is going to think, okay, well, I can probably pay 800 or 500. They’re going to think that the $1,000 is the starting point of the negotiation. It’s not the ending point. That’s just an example I’m thinking of.

Pat: Right, no, that’s a good example. And I can think of others where especially if I have an initial consultation where I’ve told the client pluses and minuses of their case, and I certainly say, don’t go tell your spouse the downside of your case. Obviously, you want to make your best points.

Kevin: Yeah. What happens is if you run to your spouse and tell them what your position is on the divorce, what your lawyer said, that the outcome is going to be that’s now become your best case scenario, not your worst case or the likely scenario. That’s just how negotiations work. Okay. Number four walk away from arguments or conflict.

Pat: You can’t resolve anything when you’re screaming at each other. Walk away. Let the tensions settle. Address issues when you can both be rational and reasonable. I think that’s what he means.

Kevin: Oh, yeah. And you mentioned earlier, like, the phone call example is a great one. If someone’s screaming on the phone, hang up don’t engage again. Keep it go back to number one. Keep it polite, keep it professional. All right? Number five expect your spouse to resent your lawyer and attempt to undermine his or her influence.

Pat: I think that’s one of the most important ones that well, when I say important most often makes me give this form to people totally, right. And they laugh because that’s exactly what’s happening. They’re saying that, oh, your lawyer isn’t any good, or I heard that your lawyer doesn’t know what they’re doing.

Kevin: But the situation is, one of our clients will come in and say, my spouse said his or her lawyer said that you don’t know what you’re doing and that your proposal is unreasonable and that I should fire you. Run to the drawer and pull this out. It happens all the time. Your lawyer doesn’t know what they’re doing. Your lawyer is causing problems. You should fire your lawyer. So don’t listen to your spouse when they’re talking about your lawyer.

Pat: Right.

Kevin: Sometimes it’s true that the lawyer is not very good. Okay. Number six don’t enter into private negotiations without your lawyer’s knowledge and advice.

Pat: Just a caveat. It’s not speaking to the issue of not talking directly to your spouse. You certainly can do that. But don’t reach an agreement, don’t finalize anything. Don’t jump into negotiations without having a good idea of what your expectations are, and your lawyer can help you with that.

Kevin: Yeah. And this goes back to what we were talking about earlier, about knowing your spouse and your relationship. I mean, if you and your spouse are on good terms and you can reasonably discuss custody, you don’t necessarily have to run that by your lawyer and have your lawyer financial. You should probably have a good idea of what your position or what the likely outcome is going to be before you enter negotiations. But definitely, and this is really number seven is don’t make agreements or sign anything without talking to your lawyer first. So that’s where if you combine those two, the big problem is when you negotiate, reach an agreement, and then your spouse whips something out and says, all right, well, great. Why don’t you sign this?

Pat: Right?

Kevin: Clients get themselves into trouble frequently by doing things like that.

Pat: The next one’s, one of my favorites, kevin, when in doubt, believe your lawyer, not your spouse. You don’t know how many times clients will say, but my husband or my wife said this is the way it was going to be.

Kevin: Right.

Pat: Always believe your lawyer over what your spouse is telling you.

Kevin: Yes. Again, goes back to number two. Half of what is said is meant to deceive you, and that includes your spouse telling you your lawyer doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Okay. Number nine use your lawyer as hired insulators. Learn to say, talk to your lawyer and have him or her talk to mine. So I think we mentioned that during the podcast was if you have an intermediary run interference, it’s going to take a lot of the emotion out of the case. It’s going to give a chance to think clearly, to think on things and filter out the emotion.

Pat: And I find that particularly useful to clients who are being kind of barraged by their spouse.

Kevin: They’re maybe pressured into trying to agree to something.

Pat: Right.

Kevin: Okay. Number ten, don’t rub in your legal victories. Losers will try to even up.

Pat: It’s kind of self explanatory what we said before. Somebody’s going to win, somebody’s going to lose, but don’t rub it in.

Kevin: Yeah. Because they will try and get back at you somehow. Number eleven please obtain a post office box until the conclusion of the case so that the mail will not be intercepted by your spouse.

Pat: And believe me, it will be. If it’s coming to you with your name on it and it’s coming to the house where your spouse has access to it and suppose it’s from your attorney and it talks about strategy or things like that, you’ve got to have that confidential address where you know your spouse does not have access.

Kevin: Now if you’ve moved out and have your own separate address, that doesn’t really apply. It’s really if you’re still living with your spouse and I’d stretch this to include make sure you change the passwords on your email boxes. Make sure there’s no way for your spouse to be getting your text messages, those sorts of things.

Pat: Right. Keep in mind Mr. Goldman was before the time of cell phones and emails and text messages. So you kind of have to extrapolate on that and secure everything.

Kevin: All right, number 13. I’m going to read this, but I’m going to let you explain this. It’s a little more complicated. Do not under any circumstances enter into any agreements of sale on your real estate or the acquisition of new real estate without first conferring with your attorney. Such an action or activity on your part could find you in a squeeze play without a place to live and without funds to make the purchase if your settlement has not been consummated by that time. So what’s he getting at here?

Pat: So more often than not, the equity in the home, the proceeds from the sale of the marital home are what you’re going to use to move on. And if you enter into a contract to sell your house without an assurance that you’re going to get any of the proceeds right away, the proceeds can be locked up in an escrow account when the house sells and not be accessible to you.

Kevin: Well, similarly, you don’t want to enter into an agreement to buy a house without making sure you’ve got the funds available to buy the house. And I think that happens more. I think that’s a bigger problem.

Pat: Well, that’s right because you could now have a contractual dilemma with the people from whom you’re supposed to purchase the house and they could sue you in another forum.

Kevin: Yeah, I mean, how many times have you had a client come to you and say, like, oh, I’m buying a house and then my spouse won’t sign off on or I can’t get the money out of the escrow account or whatever it is, and all of a sudden they’re panicked.

Pat: Right. And even if you have the funds and wherewithal to buy a house and you’ve entered into a contract, you won’t believe how many times people have come to me and said, the title company won’t let me buy the house unless my spouse waives any interest in the house. And when the divorce is in process, everybody gets nervous. The spouse doesn’t want to start signing waivers. The title company on behalf of the mortgage company is assuring title. Well, a spouse could have priority over a new mortgage company. So it becomes a big dilemma, these contractual things. But getting back to entering into an agreement of sale or selling your house. To sell your house, you got to make sure if you intend to use some of the proceeds that you’ve reached some kind of an agreement to either an interim distribution or an outright distribution if the case isn’t over. Or wait and don’t list your house for sale until you know you’ll have the funds to move on.

Kevin: Yeah, that’s for listeners. Typically, if you do sell your house without an agreement during a divorce, the agreements are going to end up being put in some sort of escrow account. Occasionally, the title company issues a check in both parties names, and then one party won’t sign the check to keep the funds frozen, that sort of thing. So you can’t count on getting a portion of the funds unless you’ll have an agreement in place beforehand as to how the funds are going to be distributed.

Pat: That’s right.

Kevin: All right, I think that wraps up this podcast. Do you have anything else, Pat?

Pat: No, I think that’s about it. Hopefully you’ve gotten some good points about how to behave while in the throes of a divorce.

Kevin: All right. I’m Kevin.

Pat: And I’m Pat.

Kevin: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Divorce Rulebook podcast.

Pat: Hey, podcast listeners. Are you thinking about divorce but are worried about the cost and animosity associated with the traditional divorce process? Well, Snap Divorce has a better way for you to divorce. Through divorce mediation. Snap Divorce eliminates everything bad about traditional divorce. With Snap Divorce, there is no court, no dueling lawyers, and no endless delays. Our experienced attorney mediators help you and your spouse resolve your divorce fairly easily and amicably. Best of all, Snap Divorce does it for a reasonable flat fee. Schedule your free consultation now@snapdevororce.com. Hey, podcast listeners. If you found this podcast helpful, please hit the subscribe button. If you’d like to connect with us or have an idea for a show, you can send us an email at podcast@snapdevorce.com. You can also check out our website and blog@snapdivorce.com. And if you’ve enjoyed our show, please take a moment to rate us on itunes, Apple, Podcasts, Spotify, or whichever podcast app you use. Until next time, thanks for listening.